Recover them Yes or No

Discussion about wrecks and losses as well as historic sites in the Pacific.

Moderator: Moderator

Recover All Aircraft From The Pacific?

Yes
126
79%
No
33
21%
 
Total votes: 159

Buzzking
Sergeant
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:49 pm

Recover them Yes or No

Post by Buzzking » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:58 am

Very Simple folks,

Yes or No there will be no well they can leave a few for the tourist crap.

Time to show your true colors folks.

For me its Yes they all should be recovered and either restored to flying made into musuem peice.

This Draconian idea of leave them for the next generation is crook of BS actually its in my opion criminal and is a dirrect violation of all things Historical.

To put it into another context should we have left the Mary Rose were it was or restored Atheans we all know the answer to that its the same Bloody thing folks.

BZK

W.J.Swain
Sergeant
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 12:24 am

Post by W.J.Swain » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:30 am

If no fatalities occured..save what you can

Fatalities involved.. It stays put..
A&P Mechanic/ QA Inspector for 26 Years. Researching and building a Database on the Grim Reapers.

Buzzking
Sergeant
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:49 pm

Post by Buzzking » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:44 am

W.J.Swain wrote:If no fatalities occured..save what you can

Fatalities involved.. It stays put..
Why if they are true fatalities then the remains would have been recovered a true memory would be to either display as preserved or restored for musuem display.

BZK

Daniel Leahy
Lt Col
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 10:21 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by Daniel Leahy » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:37 pm

Okay, I've added a poll to this thread so people don't have to post if they don't want to ... Just click "Yes" or "No" at the top of the page.

This could get very heated, so please make all posts issue/fact oriented and allow each person to have their own views. Any flaming, bullying or childlike behaviour will not be tolerated with appropriate posts (or even membership) removed.
Daniel Leahy
Canberra, Australia

RAAF CASUALTY DATABASE
http://www.raafdb.com

Mr.Chris
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:30 pm

Post by Mr.Chris » Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:05 pm

[POST REMOVED]

Buzzking
Sergeant
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:49 pm

Post by Buzzking » Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:58 am

Mr.Chris wrote:[POST REMOVED]
Brillant there Chris nothing like violating 12 different Internation Laws. Your an idiot its people like you who give the folks who want to do recoverrys a bad name. If I recall when you went to the Pacific you decide to tell a nice white lie to the local police lucky you didn't get shot.

Why don't you stick to rebuilding your Havard and let us who do this for a living stick to doing that ok.

BZK

Daniel Leahy
Lt Col
Posts: 284
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 10:21 pm
Location: Australia
Contact:

Post by Daniel Leahy » Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:08 am

Out of respect for those who were killed, those who remain missing along with their next of kin, I have removed Mr Chris' post. I have also warned him via a Private Message.

I respect the views of those intending to recover aircraft and ask that anyone who posts here respects the views of both sides of the argument.

This is no place to slander or dishonour those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

If there are any further posts like this, the user will have their forum membership removed and their IP banned.

If anyone has a problem with this, or would like to discuss it further, please E-Mail or PM me directly.
Daniel Leahy
Canberra, Australia

RAAF CASUALTY DATABASE
http://www.raafdb.com

Mr.Chris
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:30 pm

Post by Mr.Chris » Sun Jun 11, 2006 1:33 pm

I wrote this, because you can bury remains yourself. The did it during the war. You can also do it in an honorable way.

Buzzking
Sergeant
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:49 pm

Post by Buzzking » Sun Jun 11, 2006 4:34 pm

Chris,

You really need to go learn International Law. Start with UNESCO the section that deals with WWII Wargraves maybe you should read up on the French Divers who went into a German U-Boat that had been declaired a Wargrave.

Also maybe you need to go read US and English Law on this usbject in the USA its a 1 Million Dollar fine if your caught removing human remains from a Military crash site only the DoD can do that. Matter of fact if you don't report that you found remains you can be covict and fine 250,000 Dollars and spend up to 5 Years in Jail.

You really have no idea what your talking about or doing so please zip it for the good of everyone.

BZK

Mr.Chris
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:30 pm

Post by Mr.Chris » Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:31 pm

Actually, now, you're talking about the UN. Did you that the UN is a corrupted and compromised organization? Di you also know that the Un is working behind the scenes to ban firearms in the U.S.?

David McNeill
2nd Lieutenant
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:35 am
Location: London, UK

Post by David McNeill » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:19 am

There are more wrecks that museums or individuals with the interest or capacity to store and/or restore them at the moment.

However, many wrecks will not survive another half century out in the open for a variety of reasons.

If human remains are present then the wreck is a wargrave and should be left alone. The only exception for me is if the surviving relatives give their permission for recovery.

I think a policy of targeting those wrecks for recovery that are historically important, rare or substantially complete is the sensible way to go.

NS38th_Aristaeus
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Post by NS38th_Aristaeus » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:39 am

If human remains are present then the wreck is a wargrave and should be left alone. The only exception for me is if the surviving relatives give their permission for recovery
.

The above statement does not make sense.
If an aircraft is found that has humen remains in it then the proper athourities should be notified and the remains removed. I am not talking about telling the local pig farmer either.
Once the remains have been removed then the plane can be salvaged.
Are you suggesting that the remains of our fallen airmen should be left in the jungle? I do not think that is the policy of the U.S.
CAN'T TALK; GOTTA SHOOT
http://www.Hawaiiclipper.com
http://www.NS38th.com
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Find Them, Restore Them, Fly'Em

Mr.Chris
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:30 pm

Post by Mr.Chris » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:59 pm

Yes, I agree w/ Aristaeus:

In fact I can think of two cases where people have recovered planes that had fatalities. One in PNG and the other in Canada. Also I saw a documentary where people recovered things from sunken ships w/ mass fatalities.

I know a person who recovers MIAs w/ permission from next of kin.

Anyway I think people like to build things up from a molehill to a mountain if somebody died somewhere. Just think if a freeway became a gravesite anytime somebody died there? You'd have to close off the old section where the fatality occured, and keep bypassing that section of the road. You'd also have some pretty irate taxpayers. So by that logic I'd say it's the same logic w/ calling a recoverable plane a gravesite. Honor the dead, but don't take it so far. Recover as many planes as you want, and get them flying.

Buzzking
Sergeant
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:49 pm

Post by Buzzking » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:18 pm

Alright your morons let me spell it out in plan English it is Illegal to 1 To remove or touch US Personal Remains it will cost you up to 1 Million Dollars and 10 Years in Federal Pen. 2 International Law be it UNSECO or English/French/German/Japn all have laws protecting there war dead all of them have treatys with each other over this. and yes they Japan/England/Australia/New Zealand have treatys with the PNG Goverment which were signed in the mid 70s about the human remains.

Grow up and stop being a bunch of arse.

BZK

Mr.Chris
1st Lieutenant
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:30 pm

Post by Mr.Chris » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:53 am

BZK:

Can you give us Chapter, Section and Article of the document that you mention?

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